Good afternoon all,

 We were called in to do an energy audit on a log home.  Very nice house but with ice build up and back up in winter and moisture on the interior main beam during summer.  We could see with infrared and visual inspection that there wasn't enough insulation but, with it being a log ceiling, we weren't sure how do address this.  We shared with the home owners that it looked like the roof had to be reconfigured to allow us to put in closed cell.  So, basically a new roof.  Has anyone ever encountered this before and what was the solution?

thank you!

Views: 225

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Hmmm interesting that infrared can tell you exactly how much insulation... More like you have some thermal anomalies which show some issues which require more looking into. For typical issues like this you need to take existing roofing off & get down to T&G boards (assuming this style) / sheathing (if not other) & build it back properly carefully insulating the he11 out of it - recommend at least two layers offset & taped

Thank you, Sean.  Infrared did not tell exactly what we needed, only that our suspicions were correct.  We shot the house from the outside.  Anyway, we're still at taking off the roof, eh.

Yep especially if you got water issues as the insulation that was there is now essentially shot / water trapped & there maybe more issues you can't readily see (though infrared can help in that regard)

This is like those BPI "Stump the Chump" problems where there is not enough information to answer the problem, so the person with the best guess wins.
It is most helpful if posters noted the pertinent information. In this case, that would be things like, what kind of ceiling? (I am assuming cathedral?), what is the ceiling covering? (T&G? sheetrock?) what kind of roofing? (asphalt shingles?, shakes?, standing seam?) Is there a flat attic? Where is the house located (city/state)?

Almost all of the log homes that I have encountered around the Central Vermont area have standard 2x spruce rafters with fiberglass batts. One had a SIPS roof and another a "living roof" (sod and grass). Many of them have T&G ceilings which leak air.
As for infrared, I rarely look at a house from the exterior due to the many variables that could affect the IR. (I completed a Level I thermography class with Snell Infrared about 10 years ago, and I use IR a lot).
You need to know the structure of the roof in order to come up with a proper diagnosis and prescription.

"The more you look, the more you see", and "If you don't look, you don't see".

This is like those BPI "Stump the Chump" problems where there is not enough information to answer the problem, so the person with the best guess wins.

It is most helpful if posters noted the pertinent information. In this case, that would be things like, what kind of ceiling? (I am assuming cathedral?), what is the ceiling covering? (T&G? sheetrock?) what kind of roofing? (asphalt shingles?, shakes?, standing seam?) Is there a flat attic? Where is the house located (city/state)?

Almost all of the log homes that I have encountered around the Central Vermont area have standard 2x spruce rafters with fiberglass batts. One had a SIPS roof and another a "living roof" (sod and grass). Many of them have T&G ceilings which leak air. As for infrared, I rarely look at a house from the exterior due, especially roofs, due to the many variables that could affect the IR. (I completed a Level I thermography class with Snell Infrared about 10 years ago, and I use IR a lot). You need to know the structure of the roof in order to come up with a proper diagnosis and prescription.

"The more you look, the more you see", and "If you don't look, you don't see".

Thanks Brad.  You're correct on the missing info.  I do the customer service work and help do the actual audits but the boss does all the inspection work.  It is T&G and a cathedral ceiling.  I'm just trying to help the folks out and see if there are other options out there.  We're in western NY.

 I don't get how someone can sell a log home or a modular home in this area with the BS insulation they put in there.  At least tell the folks that it should be foam and FG batts and give them a price and let them decide.

Agree that its hard to help without more information. Pictures? IR images? Do IR images show air bypass or insulation voids? or both?

If its T&G with exposed beam rafters it would suggest the T&G is the roof sheathing as well as the finish ceiling and all existing insulation is outboard of that and is probably foam board. If that's the case, best to tackle from the outside and problems are likely due to foam board joints being leaky (perhaps broken seal from movement). If that's not possible, could talk owner into a new interior look and use the rafter cavity to do it right on the inside and then install new finished ceiling, T&G or other.

If its T&G continuous across the ceiling and no exposed beams there is probably dimensional 2x rafters behind it with crappy fiberglass/poly and its probably vented soffit to ridge (is it?) and leaky as all T&G is. In this case, could gut it or do it right from the T&G inward with air impermeable board insulation sealed to T&G, strapped and then install new finished ceiling.

I think either way you are looking at either a new ceiling or a new roof unless IR shows only air bypass and not voids and you want to just clear caulk a mile of T&G joints and hope for the best. I'd also double what was said earlier that you investigative if moisture issues are more severe than meets the eye before covering it all up with something new!

Best of luck!

I would look to stop air from penetrating the ceiling. I would guess hot air is able to rise through penetrations in the ceiling or the ceiling itself, washing batt insulation. If you are going to remove the roof and use closed cell foam it will fix the issue. closed cell pretty much fixes all problems. Another option is to use a clear coat polyurethane to seal the ceiling. Like finishing wood work.  Then caulk in all ceiling penetrations.

I built one of these two decades ago. From inside to outside....

Log main beams, 2 x 6 T&G ceiling, 6 mil poly sheeting, then 14 inch TJI spacer/rafter with R-38 batt and 2 inch air space, then roof deck with soffit and ridge vents.

We ran the TJI rafters out 3 feet past the side wall for summer passive solar shading on the windows, so we had the space to extend the fiberglass batts well outside the sidewall -- no cold top plate/top log.

We were wicked careful to keep the VB solid. The insulator shoving the batts in had a roll of tape on their wrist, with strict instructions to tape every flaw found.

In southern Wisconsin, this system worked. No icicles, no ice dams, even during the winter (2000-2001) that saw ice dams all over the southern half of the state. That's the winter I shot an ice dam photo that's STILL being used in a physics textbook.
Thank you everyone. Homeowners are removing the roof and we are going from there. I am going to speak with the log home company and go over some of the ideas offered here.
Bob

RSS

Forum Discussions

VERY TIGHT HOME WITH OVER SIZED AC

Started by Jerry Needham in BPI. Last reply by Dave Taylor on Thursday. 6 Replies

Mini split air conditioners and ceiling fans

Started by Beverly Lerch in General Forum. Last reply by Daniel Baur-McGuire on Monday. 4 Replies

DIY Filter Solution for an Evaporative Cooler, anyone?

Started by Leslie Jackson in HVAC. Last reply by Daniel Baur-McGuire on Monday. 6 Replies

Apply now for the Jon Siemen Memorial Scholarship!

Started by Diane Chojnowski in General Forum. Last reply by Quinn Korzeniecki Aug 9. 1 Reply

Latest Activity

Brett Little posted an event
Thumbnail

Green Rater LEED Credential Online Training at Online

September 5, 2018 at 12pm to September 6, 2018 at 5pm
With over 450,000 LEED® for Homes™ spaces worldwide, LEED is the international rating system to…See More
9 hours ago
Michael Schettine commented on Michael Schettine's video
Thumbnail

AccuFrame Water Test

"The Like button doesn't work on this site..."
21 hours ago
Franco Oyuela commented on Mike Muras's blog post "Practical Standards to Measure HVAC System Performance" Rob "Doc" Falke 04/17/2006
"It's important to evaluate and inspect a system regularly to make sure it's at optimal…"
yesterday
Seventhwave posted an event

HVAC technology enhancements for energy conservation at The Marq

October 4, 2018 from 8:30am to 4pm
Join us to learn how to get the largest energy savings in your commercial buildings. HVAC as a…See More
yesterday
Peter Krych replied to Dav Camras's discussion Adding blown insulation to poorly installed batts?
"I agree, it is wasteful to remove and dump old insulation. I still does its job. Air sealing is…"
yesterday
Michael Schettine commented on Michael Schettine's video
Thumbnail

AccuFrame Water Test

"With the conversion rate that- air is 800 time LESS dense than water at sea-level…"
yesterday
Michael Schettine posted a video

AccuFrame Water Test

In this short video, water is used to visualize air leakage sites that are present in the majority of framed walls in the US. New regulations require better ...
yesterday
Sam Feder liked Dav Camras's discussion Adding blown insulation to poorly installed batts?
Thursday
Chris Stratton liked Don Fugler's discussion Choosing a range hood
Thursday
Dave Taylor replied to Jerry Needham's discussion VERY TIGHT HOME WITH OVER SIZED AC
"Jerry, you should look at Buildingscience.com" High Mass Walls" 105 paper for more…"
Thursday
Jill Lindman's 3 events were featured
Thursday
Jill Lindman posted events
Thursday
Diane Chojnowski posted videos
Thursday
Don Fugler replied to Don Fugler's discussion Choosing a range hood in the group Kitchen Ventilation
"Has anyone installed a range hood in an older home with the ducting down to the basement and out…"
Thursday
Profile IconEileen Kraus-Dobratz, VENI MITTAL and Mark A McCrumb joined Home Energy Pros Forum
Thursday
Brian Robinson replied to Dav Camras's discussion Adding blown insulation to poorly installed batts?
"YES, YES, & YES!!! Bat droppings, mouse droppings, dead mice, nuts, seeds, acorns, lack of…"
Wednesday
Matt Peterson posted a blog post

The Importance of keeping Professionally Trained Gas Line Installation Technicians happy and loving their jobs!

Our company is very much a family to us, we strive to bring in and develop great people into great…See More
Wednesday
Profile Iconyanky fogel, Kathleen Krebs, Nicholas Rubenstein and 3 more joined Home Energy Pros Forum
Wednesday
yanky fogel liked Home Energy Magazine's video
Tuesday
Franco Oyuela commented on Shawn Weeks's blog post How Homeowners Can Keep Electricity Costs Down in Summer Months
"Cutting back on air conditioning is also good for the environment because it reduces carbon…"
Tuesday

Photos

  • Add Photos
  • View All

© 2018   Created by Home Performance Coalition (HPC)   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service